Curse

Arkantos · Dec 15, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

It wasn't overpowered ever lol.

Nobody said that either gaze or rend had to be on a N/D nor that the scenario was a N/D vs N/D..Party sizes in gw start at two and work progressively to 12.Unbelieveable I know..Amazing what can be done with technology these days

Or in simple terms: AB=4 players 32 skills 4 primary and 4 secondary professions of which there are many combinations to begin with.Plenty of potential to slip enchantment hate onto a bar.

Which is why I never said it was overpowered.

Gaze and rend are the only two non elite skills that can completely remove all enchantments. The N/D had 2 enchantments with 20 recharge and 1 enchantment with 12 recharge. Since the enchantments were used before battle, they were already close to being recharged. Most enchantment removal recharge in 15+ seconds (except rip).

So, you have two options. Bring a N/* or */N with gaze/rend, or bring about 4 other enchantment removals on other characters just to shut down this single build. Not every party is going to have a N/* or */N, unbelievable, I know. Now I don't know about you, but I don't want to bring a bunch of enchantment removal just to counter a single build I may not encounter. Build wars is bad.

Moloch Vein · Dec 16, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

But you don't need a bunch of enchantment removal. You only need Rend, and Rend is a highly useful skill in many situations. Also the enchantments are easy to interrupt once they're off the target.

Side note, why doesn't AoTL work with Bloodstained Insignia?

By the way Meth you're clearly not understanding my previous post.

The Meth · Dec 16, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Yeah, I just reread it. Thought you had it still exploiting and raising a minion for every corpse in range. TBH that skill just sounds like a special version of flesh golem, and unless the dragon lich has some awesome skills, just as useful (though also open to abuse in certain areas where you have 30 enemy corpses and get a level 50 minion). The +2 DM just seems like a tacked on bonus to make up for the elite itself being rather unimpressive.

I think AotL is one of the few new skills fine as is (the idea about letting you select the minion to be raised with your next skill sounds like a nice PvE only idea though). Just putting it on and spamming BotM was boring before, it has some cool use now.

Calista Blackblood · Dec 16, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Which is why I never said it was overpowered.

Gaze and rend are the only two non elite skills that can completely remove all enchantments. The N/D had 2 enchantments with 20 recharge and 1 enchantment with 12 recharge. Since the enchantments were used before battle, they were already close to being recharged. Most enchantment removal recharge in 15+ seconds (except rip).

So, you have two options. Bring a N/* or */N with gaze/rend, or bring about 4 other enchantment removals on other characters just to shut down this single build. Not every party is going to have a N/* or */N, unbelievable, I know. Now I don't know about you, but I don't want to bring a bunch of enchantment removal just to counter a single build I may not encounter. Build wars is bad.

Getting further off the beaten track Arky

I agree with you,entirely because your right,and i'd be highly dumb to dispute that.Yes it was common and if you didn't have some form of enchantment removal could be tricky to eliminate but that doesn't justify Brian The Gladiator's comment which is what i originally questioned.AoL wasn't overpowered (which between us isn't being disputed at all)but the biggest downfall of the build is that it could be very easily countered,with plenty of opportunity to do so

If it was "overpowered" and that big of a problem,then you would somehow somewhere take measures to remove it from the equation(or pray that you don't play against it),even if only temporarily.Failing that a lot of QQing would have resulted it in being changed long before it was

The change (I hate the word "nerf") wasn't needed

And before someone picks up on it: Being easily countered or otherwise doesn't categorise a skill as overpowered or underpowered

/bedtime

The Meth · Dec 16, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

No, its definitely not a nerf, but I rather like the change. Before AotL was just another flavor of MM, but mostly the same. Now AotL is an amazing bar compression tool, you can be a MM with just AotL + BotM and have bar space + attribute points (you can lower death magic 1 since AotL buffs it, and SR can be much lower since you only pay 10 energy to raise a whole horde). That leaves a lot of room for curses or PvE skills on your MM now, since you also don't speed half your time in battle raising new minions. Only thing I don't like about the new skill is running 2 or 3 MM's at a time is now pretty impractical, but its not a huge loss really. For example, I thought this up just now:
Death Magic: 11 + 3 + 1
Curses: 11 + 1
Soul Reaping: 8 + 1

[Aura of the Lich][Blood of the Master][Death Nova][Mark of Pain][Barbs][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Signet of Lost Souls]

Dunno how well a Hero would run it, they might not be smart enough to save AotL till after they have more then 1 corpse ready to use it, and they aren't great hexers, but a human should make it work very nicely. Swap in whatever PvE skills you might want to use of course. Would be very nice paired up with another full time curser (preferably AP).

MegaVolti · Dec 16, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

New AotL sucks, except for making minions before the fight starts in RA.

45s recharge, corpses +1 minions
In 45s you can cast [[Animate Bone Minions] 9 times, giving you 2 minions for each corpse and without blocking the elite slot.
The non-elite summons are just so much better then AotL.

Moloch Vein · Dec 16, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

The difference I was getting at was that you could have any number of "extra-level" minions, it was just a matter of finding enough corpses.

+2 Death might be problematic but then again elementalists have +2<All elemental magic> as a non-elite unstrippable glyph and are able to raise Fire to 20 nowadays.

Then again the new Aura actually makes MMing a fair bit stronger in low-level PvP. The extra level really, really helps, as does the slighter-faster cast of a spell to pop up an army in one shot. I was never much of a fan of the old Lich so I don't complain.

-Lotus- · Dec 16, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

The old AotL was one of the few skills with a mechanic that was actually interesting. I'm sad to see it go. There was no reason to change it.

snaek · Dec 16, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

the old aotl was imo jus a lesser gay shadow form

the new aotl, while not necessarily powerful
is very fun and interesting

@megavolti
aotl can potentially raise 10 lvl19/20 minions in 2secs
animate bone minions can potentially raise 10 lvl13/14 minions in ~36secs (2.25 cast + 5 recharge)
*not including 40/40

dun be so biased

The Meth · Dec 16, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

The old AotL was one of the few skills with a mechanic that was actually interesting. I'm sad to see it go. There was no reason to change it.

Interesting mechanic? All it basically did was half sacrifice costs and effectively double the amount of healing and regen/degen you took. Nothing special or cool, just helped MM's survive. The new AotL actually allows for new interesting build types.

-Lotus- · Dec 17, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Interesting mechanic? All it basically did was half sacrifice costs and effectively double the amount of healing and regen/degen you took. Nothing special or cool, just helped MM's survive. The new AotL actually allows for new interesting build types.

where do you get to the part where it was not an interesting mechanic? It was the only skill in the game that did anything similar. the new skill just raises a bunch of minions at once... horray! you still need more than one minion skill and most of your minions will come from another skill since AotL has such a long recharge. nothing really new...

snaek · Dec 17, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by -lotus-

nothing really new...

being able to summon minions without corpses isnt new?

The Meth · Dec 17, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

It was a skill who's only purpose was to make yourself live longer. Here are a few lists of related skills: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resto...n_Magic_skills http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_monk_skills.

The new skill is a great bar compressor that lets MM's be something more then just MM's (though the skill could do with being lowered to 30s recharge, but its still good enough). The old one was just a nice way to heal/prot yourself.

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Well I'm having fun inventing ridiculous Lich builds for lower-end pvp at the moment.

Shadowmere · Dec 17, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

well I mostly don't like the change due to the fact that it ruined my hobby multi-MM build, no viable way to spam botm for 30+ minions anymore. That was about the only real use I had for AotL though so it's not all bad.

But I've spent some time with the new version, and it is good for MM bar compression, you only need 1 other animate skill on the bar with AotL to keep a full army now. Additionally it keeps the MM fast, since you can make an entire army after a battle with a single 2 sec cast it means you'll be able to keep up with a human team a lot better than other MMs.

so yeah, mixed feelings overall. I'ts fun but for most situations I'll still take OoU over it.

Fire Drake · Dec 18, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I was testing it in GToB and with 16 Death I was raising lvl 19 minions, something I couldn't have done before. Combined with Barbs it was pretty awesome. I'm going to make a necro just to use this skill :P

Daesu · Dec 18, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I am having fun coming up with alternative MM hero builds with the new Aotl. For example this one that generates bone horrors to act as frontlines for the fiends and Mystic Regen for self healing.

[Aura of the Lich][Dark Bond][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Mystic Regeneration][Blood of the Master][Animate Bone Fiend][Signet of Lost Souls]

Quite energy intensive but workable with another Curse/BR necro hero.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 18, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Would be better if it worked on your NEXT animate spell, so you could select the minion type to be raised.

arcane mimicry + Animate Blood Golom FTW

Akimb0 · Dec 18, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Still not feeling any love with this new AoTL at all really :S It's still better to be raising minions from the start of the battle, as each enemy dies, rather than waiting until the fight is over and then raising 5+ minions with nothing left to kill. For 15 energy with a 45 second recharge it's just not worth the elite slot imo. I don't disagree that in certain situations it'd be a barrel of laughs, such as in Vizunah square, however it's general usefulness has decreased to the point where I doubt I'll ever use it anywhere except Vizunah square.

Feels like Anet are just bored and perhaps out of touch with the game.

Daesu · Dec 18, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akimb0

It's still better to be raising minions from the start of the battle, as each enemy dies, rather than waiting until the fight is over and then raising 5+ minions with nothing left to kill.

That is not always the case. When you are fighting a tough mob, your minions can be totally wiped out and party members start to die. Having the ability to create an instant army from the corpses can be useful at that time. Besides, exchanging 15e for an entire minion army is worth it.

On the other hand, by having such a long recharge, it may not be available when you need it most.